Will McHenry Police view a defensive move differently than the McHenry County Sheriff's Department did back in 2005? At that time a man who lived in rural Harvard shot and killed a neighbor's vicious guard dog when it charged him on his own property. He was convicted of aggravated cruelty of an animal by jury that was swayed by emotion of the prosecutors and put to sleep by the unemotional, rational, logical, boring defense. In my opinion, the jury disregarded the facts. The judge even admonished the prosecution about "humanizing" the dead dog, but they got away with it again during closing arguments. The defense never got into the game, and the defendant suffered for it.
If Schneider gets charged with felonious abuse to an animal, he'll wish he had kept his mouth shut. It is natural to defend your actions, but Illinois laws are garbage in this area.
An article in this morning's local paper says that the owners of the pit bull thought Schneider should have given them a chance to grab their dog. Well, they had a chance. All the way from their front door to the point where their dog got within stabbing range of Schneider's knife. Probably about three seconds.
Whether or not the pit bull just "wanted to play", the breed has a bad reputation. The owners of the pit bull, Steve and Traci Klein, knew that and had apparently attempted to calm neighbors' fears in the two months they had lived in the neighborhood.
Maybe now they'll keep the dog's collar for the invisible fence on 24/7. But what happens when the power goes out? Or the dog decides to charge through the electronic barrier?
14 comments:
I had a German Shepherd charge my daughter on my property. If I had a gun, the dog would be dead ... period. If people are too damn irresponsible to keep their animals in their own yard or under their control, and they attack me, my family or my pets on my property, they're dead.
Google Nick Foley of Cary, IL if you think my statement is harsh.
I'm pretty sure the guy in Harvard was convicted because his story did not corroborate the facts of the case.
Sorry, Phil. Wrong guess. I attended his trial. If you ever have to kill a dog that is attacking you, make sure you get a good lawyer who will stay with you to the end of the trial.
Didn't it go something like this -the defendant was walking out to get his newspaper when he was attacked. He walked out the BACK of his house to go get the newspaper at the end of the driveway in the FRONT of his house. That's when the dog charged him but luckily he always carried his AR-15 when getting his paper. At that point he shot the dog. The prosecutor's forensic evidence showed that the dog was shot while running AWAY from the defendant. That makes sense because that's usually how dogs attack. Or it could be that he was found guilty because his lawyer removed himself from the case.
Wasn't his story that he was walking out to get his newspaper when the dog attacked? He walked out the BACK of his house to get the newspaper at the end of his driveway in the the FRONT of his house. It was his lucky day however, because he happened to have his AR-15 with him. Who doesn't carry a high powered rifle to get the newspaper? That's when he shot the dog. Didn't the forensic evidence show that the dog was shot while running AWAY from the shooter? Or maybe he was found guilty because his lawyer withdrew from the case.
Phil, there are a number of things wrong with your version. The MCSD diagram showed the paper on the ground at the BACK of the house. There was a reason he had the rifle with him; the dog had threatened him earlier, when he had gone out to get his paper the first time. My understanding is that he shot the dog as the dog ran toward him. You might recall that two defense lawyers were in the courtroom at the trial.
Phil –
You Said:
>>>> “the defendant was walking out to get his newspaper when he was attacked.”
Highly suspicious behavior, I agree.
>>>> “ He walked out the BACK of his house to go get the newspaper at the end of the driveway in the FRONT of his house.
So what? Depending on the home’s architecture, the site, the living circumstances in which the home is used, the back door can be the most logical choice. Lots of folks utilize their back or side door entrances exclusively – the front door’s use entirely relegated to formal visitors only. All good friends and relatives use the back or side doors exclusively – at least that’s been my experience. Sometimes for the owner, it allows you to pass into the mudroom on a regular basis, keeping the front entry hall and living room cleaner.
So what?
>>>> “That's when the dog charged him”
So you DO agree the dog charged him, eh? But then again, he was sneaky – surprising the dog by coming out the back.
>>>> “The prosecutor's forensic evidence showed that the dog was shot while running AWAY from the defendant”
Nope. Unless there was corroborating evidence as to the distance from which the shot was fired, all it tells you is that the dog was not directly facing the victim at that very instant the trigger was pulled. In the heat of an armed attack, whether human or dog, the aggressor often turns or pivots during the attack. If a “good shot” is taken at that very instant, it might appear they were shot in retreat, but that may not be correct. This “evidence” of yours is suspect.
Gus - agree with both you and Karen.
If anything, for one very obvious and irrefutable reason. We have the absolute right to protect ourselves and our family members (of which dogs qualify) and of our property (of which dogs qualify again) – whether it’s on our own property, or when we’re in or upon the Public Way.
The dog owner has the RESPONSIBILITY to CONTROL their dog. Even the most responsible or vigilant owners’ efforts are sometimes not enough. When those efforts fail for any reason, the results are both unfortunate and unavoidable. I’m sorry, but when it comes down to my life and that of my family members (which includes my pets), “Fluffy” DOES NOT get a pass.
Neither are any of us to be held to a “mano et doggo” fight standard. The dog is bringing multiple knives to the fight. Proportional force and all that……
Question – what happens when a Pit Bull, Doberman, Rotweiller or German Shepherd charges a responding Police Officer? Or most any other dog for that matter? They get shot. They get shot dead. If they don’t get charged for those actions, why should a civilian?
I love dogs. Absolutely. And that is why it’s incumbent on me to control my dog. Should I fail in that control, someone could be hurt or killed, and that includes my “Fluffy”.
If the agressor turns away from the attack at the sight of the weapon it is not a "good shot". Get a better lawyer.
Over the years, I've been in the situation of being well acquainted with numerous dogs whose "breed temperment" would generally be deemed "aggressive" or "assertive". And some of whom were actually trained as guard dogs. We had many hours of mutually shared enjoyment and friendship.
Yet if you were to ask me whether or not I was confident that these very same dogs could be trusted around other dogs or strangers? Not so much. I know they liked and trusted ME, but I would have never taken a bet on a stranger or another strange dog.
Gus -
Your article title, "Can You Defend Your Dog", is titled in pursuit of the question of whether or not Mr. Schneider can defend his dog.
The REAL question of whether or not one can defend one's dog should actually be leveled at the Kleins!
By training and CONTROLLING THEIR dog, they would have been DEFENDING their dog as well.
DEFENDING their dog against its own animal instincts.
tiredofthenonsense said...
>>>> "If the agressor turns away from the attack at the sight of the weapon it is not a "good shot". Get a better lawyer.
Yeah, Nonsense! LOL! Dogs are so brainy, they always know to turn away from a baseball bat or a gun! They listen to their lawyers and read up on case law. LOL!
Those crafty dogs!
Maybe you're just tired of the nonsense rattling around in your own skull.
And to be fair, Nonsense -
Whether dog or human -
We're talking split-second decisions here. If my life is in danger, I'm not going to wait to make sure that at this split second in time, they no longer mean to kill me, as opposed to their initial demonstrated attempt to kill me.
Their "retreat" could simply be their calculated move to hide behind available cover to continue their assault.
I was attacked by a retired German Shepherd police dog being kept as a pet, and survived.
Had I had a gun or a knife, you can bet I would have stabbed and/or shot that dog until it was dead! DEAD!
It was my cousin's dog. What did I do to provoke him? After an hour or so of playing fetch with a ball, I dared to reach down and take a swig from my frosty Corona.
This guy stabbed the attacking dog with his knife. Good for him!
The shepherd that charged my daughter got a kick to the ribs and a punch to the head, and a kick to the ass as he retreated. The thing about pit bulls, they don't retreat. They clamp on and don't let go. It's what they're bred to do.
If you read about the case of Nick Foley, the owners and everyone else did everything they could to stop the attack of this kid. The dogs were being punched, pulled, kicked and the dogs refused to stop. This breed should be outlawed, then again, sick and twisted people will find some other violent and cruel way to exploit some other helpless animal for their amusement.
It would be satisfying to me to see the people that breed and use pit bulls to be mauled, hospitalized and have to go through months of therapy. Then again, it seems moronic, violent and morally bankrupt people don't ever seem to learn ...
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