Should "sort-of" cops be allowed to carry firearms off-duty?
Democratic candidate for McHenry County sheriff Mike Mahon issued a press release earlier this week, questioning Sheriff's Nygren's denial of toting privileges for 230 McHenry County Sheriff's Department corrections (jail) officers, court security officers and process servers.
When I was a reserve deputy sheriff in Colorado in the 1970s, a newly-elected sheriff changed our commission from full-time to on-duty only, although he let us keep our concealed carry cards. I recognized the financial liability immediately, and a number of other reserve deputies and I stopped carrying our firearms off-duty.
We warned one particular reserve deputy not to carry. He had about ten years' reserve experience, including in Dade County, Fla. He thought and acted like a cop, which was good, but we guessed he might forget the change in policy, if he found himself in harm's way. In fact, he did.
One night he found himself witnessing a crime, and he drew his weapon and announced "Police." That was a huge mistake. Although he had been, he wasn't. Just like we had told him he might instinctively do. And the sheriff hung him out to dry.
Another ticklish situation developed, because I owned my own police-equipped motorcycle, including two-way radio on the department's frequency. I lived about 15 miles from the department headquarters and, under the sheriff's new policy, I was not "on-duty" until I checked in at the department and picked up a portable radio.
I asked about this possible situation. Let's say I was riding to the department, in uniform and armed but off-duty, and a person notified me of a bank robbery while I was stopped at a red light. What should I do? Hand him a dime and tell him to phone it in?
Since I was technically off-duty, I was not going to go to the bank!
Back to the 2010 problem in McHenry County. Should these non-sworn MCSD employees be allowed to carry firearms off-duty?
Until I see studies that indicate a high degree of risk to them when they are off-duty, I'll say they should not be allowed to carry off-duty or to and from work. Without general powers of arrest, they are civilians when they leave work. If they see a crime in progress while they are off-duty, let them call it in, just like the rest of us have to.
And, when we all have the right to carry a firearm, they can certainly exercise that right, too.
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28 comments:
Oh Gus,
What are you doing? You have to start with baby steps to accomplish anything in government.
You preach for conceal carry rights but you want to prevent a group of sworn law enforcement officers with law enforcement training in firearms from carrying their guns off duty?
You advocate for all knuckle heads to be allowed to carry a gun yet you're against loosing the anti-conceal carry grip when it comes to correctional officers.
You have to start somewhere. I think that is the point Mahon is making.
Well, first off, the group of "sworn" officers you mention are not that. A sworn officer is a peace officer. These three groups are not.
As I understand it, corrections officers used to be sworn officers, but I think that changed back in mid-1990s.
I doubt they have current weapons training, but it's only a guess on my part.
Actually, even a Director of Public Safety, such as Jim Wales, can't carry much of the time.
Actually Gus, the correctional officers as much training as the patrol deputies minus the shotgun training. McHenry County Correctional officers firearms training far exceeds most police departments.
Richard, thanks. I guess my question is, Why?
How do you get around the "police powers" question, if corrections officers are carrying to/from and off-duty?
The ones who need that kind of training are the transportation details.
Liabilty. It's a one word answer.
Correctional Officers are required to carry a weapon when they transport prisoners and while performing other duties.
Anyone that carries a weapon must TRAIN TRAIN TRAIN for liabilty issues.
BTW the MCSO has one of the most stringent firearms training programs of any Illinois agency. They qualify quaterly and are required to pass night low vision shoots and tactical shoots.
Check Illinois State law. The law allows even an armed security guard to carry their weapon to and from work, how could you expect any less for a TRAINED correctional officer.
Gus, I know you are for concealed carry. Correctional officers should be entitled to protect themselves and their families from "bad guys." Those officers are the ones that run into these people all the time. They don't need "police powers" as they would exercise no more power than anyone else but would afforded protection from people who want to harm them and their families.
All Correctional officers transport inmates outside the facility.
Every single correctional officer has to transport, which they obviously carry a weapon for. They also must have their weapon everytime they are out of the facility but in uniform, whether on duty or not. So they do have extensive firearm training and are required to qualify on their weapon every 3 months.
Support the police, you're not referring to the McHenry County Sheriff's Dept., are you?
I think the flap here right now is that corrections officers are NOT allowed to carry to/from work or off-duty.
Could be that I'm wrong about this.
Gus,
FACT is that the Sheriff can not authorize the Correctional Officers to carry firearms when they are so called OFF DUTY. State law prohibits them. They are not LAW ENFORCMENT based under Illinois law.
Maybe the Democratic CROOK County Sheriff candidate has his own version of the law, but correctional officer can not carry.
Some say there are 102 Counties in Illinois. ACTUALLY there are 101 counties in the State PLUS COOK County. They follow different rules.
Here is the LAW showing the EXCEPTIONS which allow police to carry weapons OFF DUTY and limits correction to and from work.
MAYBE, JUST MAYBE the Sheriff candidate should KNOW the law before making bold statements! The Sheriff is not denying them the weapons, it is the law.
(720 ILCS 5/24‑2) (from Ch. 38, par. 24‑2)
(Text of Section from P.A. 96‑7)
Sec. 24‑2. Exemptions.
(a) Subsections 24‑1(a)(3), 24‑1(a)(4), 24‑1(a)(10), and 24‑1(a)(13) and Section 24‑1.6 do not apply to or affect any of the following:
(1) Peace officers, and any person summoned by a
peace officer to assist in making arrests or preserving the peace, while actually engaged in assisting such officer.
(2) Wardens, superintendents and keepers of prisons,
penitentiaries, jails and other institutions for the detention of persons accused or convicted of an offense, while in the performance of their official duty, or while commuting between their homes and places of employment.
I find Mr. Mahon's position rather amusing/confusing. Talk to a Chicago police officer, read the newspaper articles, listen to the television news and UNDERSTAND what they are saying. While anecdotal - not sure there are any published studies - when you read of an off duty Cook County deputy being involved in a shooting, almost invariably, it actually IS a deputy involved. Deputies in Cook County are correctional officers. The officers working the street are, I believe, "sheriff's police OFFICERS." I'm sure that if you look you'll find off duty "officers" and "deputies" involved in justifiable use of force situations in Cook but it seems that the unjustified use of force complaints that we hear of generally are the result of the actions of corrections officers there. My comments are not meant to suggest that the same thing would happen in McHenry Co if the CO's carried off duty, in fact I doubt it would. I just find, in light of the above, that Mr. Mahon would take the position he has.
Yes, it's the law that rules. Or should. Unless ignored. After all, what police chief is going to challenge a sheriff? Or arrest his deputies?
Maybe Nygren has been following the law for the past 13 years in this area?
Then why is all the scrambling going on within the Department this past week to figure out how to give corrections officers the privilege of carrying off-duty?
Mike, good comment! Thanks!
Which immediately should raise the question, "What is the difference between the McHenry County Sheriff's Police and the McHenry County Sheriff's Department?"
Why are both names in use?
Historically, sheriff's department "police officers" have been called deputies.
Obviously a police officer and corrections officer are two completely different people with two completely different jobs. Its in unfortunate when some COs think they are cops. Anyways, I am all for them carrying off duty.I agree with you Gussy that IL should be a concealed carry state, therefore I encourage COs being allowed to carry off duty. To get around them being COs they could make them sworn deputies like Dekalb and Dupage counties.
Refer back to the 101 COUNTIES Plus COOK County analogy. The distinction is historic. Before 1970 most Sheriff's Departments were POLITICAL (as was much of law enforcement) in comes the new Sheriff, they fired all the old guys and new political guys showed up. In came the Sheriff's Merit Act. Not all counties adopted the Merit System. Those that did used “Sheriff's Police” to distinguish between a merited and non merited deputy, they referred to the MERITED deputies as SHERIFF"S POLICE.
Typically the SWORN law enforcement officers were Sheriff's Police and others such as jailers, process servers, bailiffs became known simply as deputies.
Crook County took it a step further. They separated the enforcement arm totally and created a distinct agency called the Sheriff's Police. Illinois Statutes were created acknowledging this division. Now in COOK County the Sheriff's POLICE look down upon deputies.If you call a Cook County Sheriff’s Police OIFFICER a deputy, you will be strongly lectured on the difference. Deputies are the more political animals working the jail, courts etc. NOT OUT HERE!
Here we have professional CORRECTIONAL OFFICERS that are not deputies and are not technically law enforcement but are respected by the general law enforcement community. Locally the law enforcment side of the Sheriff's Office and the Corrections Division have a great relationship.
Referring back to CROOK I mean Cook county they do what they want and since Chicago and COOK County make their own rules and are home, they have deputies in the jail. Not so in the 101 other ‘downstate” counties.
Democratic candidate for McHenry County sheriff Mike Mahon is way off base with his statements of what he will do about arming Correctional officers. Unless he is changing ILLINOIS law, he might want to find another issue, becuase this one is a looser...
Seems to me that someone explained to me sometime back that the McHenry County corrections officers used to be sworn officers, and then the day came that they had to choose. If they were going to be corrections officers, then they had to "park" or voluntarily suspend their sworn status.
I understand that that has not kept them from being sworn at.
The truth is that new cops should be assigned to a veteran Correctional Officer for a few weeks to learn how to deal with people.
Most seasoned CO's don't think they are cops, don't want be cops and get annoyed with the younger Patrol Officers and their childish crap.
If you think it easy to work every minute with the dregs of society while having no way to protect your family when you run into them out on the streets, go try it for a while... Cops - who needs them!!!
CO's are sworn officers, Gus - app 38 are Deputy Sheriffs!
BTW, of course CO's arw law enforcement! Who has to show the cops how to fill out their complaints and then sign their NOAW????
Do you think, maybe, the public thinks of "law enforcement" in a narrower term and that the public thinks of cops as "law enforcement", but COs, bailiffs and process servers not as "law enforcement."
Is "law enforcement" a division of the criminal justice system, but not another name for it?
Gus, these "cops" who post here are a throwback to the old days when the "jailers" were looked down. Nowadays, they get the same or more training than the cops do.
Notawannabe's condescending remarks prove this.
BTW, almost veteran CO's preferred to be called jailers and are proud not to be confused with some of the "cry-babies" in patrol.
I think Richard is correct. There are many police officers that think they are "king of the Hill", yet if they were to try and deal with the day to day crap the CO’s put up with they'd quit. I have seen MCSO Corrections officers have to stand and explain to some town police officer HOW to complete a report or figure out what court date to use. Being a CO is not an easy job. That is one big reason they have two distinct career paths in McHenry Co.
As far as I'm concerned THEY SHOULD BE ABLE to carry concealed, but the state law prevents it. The law needs to be changed.
Also FRANK, It is not as simple as making them deputies. The law states DUTIES. If your job is primarily corrections then you are not Law Enforcement. DuPage and DeKalb may be in violation. The State is addressing these issues. Now they have Court Security Officers rather than Bailiff deputies in courts. That is an entirely different topic, but again, many counties are in violation of the law. (McHenry CO complies)
As far as I am concerned (at this time), a corrections officer is not a deputy and he (she) is not a police officer. He is a corrections officer. (Not that there is much correcting that is accomplished).
A rose by any other name is still a rose. A bailiff is a bailiff. You can call him a court security officer, but he's a bailiff. Go into any courtroom in the McHenry County Government Center and observe the bailiffs. Any of them could be easily overpowered and have his weapon taken away from him (or her).
I walked behind a female "court security officer" in the building one day. She was completely unaware of the "zone" around her.
Maybe they shouldn't be armed in the McHenry County Government Center!
As Notawannabe said, Gus, it comes down to primary duty. A CO is not a peace officer as it has been deemed that their primary duty is not to keep the peace.
The CSO, formerly bailiffs are peace officers as it was argued that their primary duty is to keep the peace.
My only point is that CO's or jailers are certainly sufficiently trained to carry off duty.
McHenry County has dangerous criminals within it. When you add the contract detainees you add a larger group to the mix that the CO's have to deal with in and outside the facility.
Finally, when you read the local paper about someone murdering a family family member, as has unfortunately been the case lately, where do you think they go? Who has to deal with them every day?
If the state law allows them to carry and if they are trained and range-qualified, I have no objection to their carrying off-duty.
At 9:27PM yesterday, a statute was quoted that wardens, superintendents and keepers of prisons, penitentiaries, jails, etc., while commuting between their homes and places of employment.
Whether "keeper" means jailer is not specified. The language needs to be clear and specific. I agree about the possibility of danger.
Yes, jailers deal with dangerous inmates daily, and they do so unarmed (of course).
Richard,
I believe you misread my comment if you think I was condescending to Correctional Officers. I said in COOK County there is a divide between the SHERIFF"S POLICE and Deputies and tried to qualify that as not being the case out here. Call any Cook County Sheriff’s Police Officer a “deputy” and trust me you’ll get an ear full. I have several CCSPD as good friends.
As far as I've seen, the local police departments and Sheriff's Patrol Deputies have great respect for the CO's.
The issue YEARS AGO was that jailers were hired for the jail and were still listed as deputies. These persons hired as a jailers were not hired following the same hiring standards and qualifications as the "ROAD" deputies who were at that time considered SHERIFF'S POLICE. Often if a “ROAD” deputy was PUNISHED he was transferred to the JAIL to work. That made the jailers unhappy and made them feel second rate.
Years ago there were at times conflicts of sorts. The two groups did not socialize together. Thankfully those days are gone.
When the laws changed and new state training standards were made job specific, the Jail was made its own division. The hiring standards for Corrections went way up. If you’ll look at the Sheriff’s Website today, you’ll see all EVERYONE in Corrections must take written exams, pass a POWER TEST just like the rest of Law Enforcement. The Correctional Facility is Professional. They have their own command staff and it is seen as a career path. Many of the Correctional Officers are now qualified trainers and teach defensive tactics, first aid and even work as firearms range officers. There is mutual respect. Corrections is a top notch CERTIFIED organization.
Nothing I said should have been construed to be anything other than constructive and showing the historic reasons for the issues. The days of condescending opinions are long gone and I hope any misunderstanding is now cleared up.
Richard, You say "cops, who needs them" then turn around and sling an arrow at Nota for being condesending. What did he say that was not correct? He is obviously a deputy pr ex deputy with a good knowledge of the Sheriff's Office. I didn't see anything foul in what he posted
Do you remember a guy named Crabtree? He was a Deputy Chief for the Sheriff Dept and he took patrol commanders and put them in the jail as the Chief jailer if he was mad at them. I heard he died a few years ago. He used to threaten road deputies with being transfered to the jail. After he left they hired a full time Chief of the Jail. If my memory is correct they hired an ex Crystal Lake Chief and then it was Chief Svoboda. Svoboda made the place a good place to work. After him it was Chief Sedlock and he seems ok to me.
The people I know in the jail all seem to like working there.
Gus, "Keeper" is a term for Jailer.I think all of them should be able to carry guns 24/7 but the law doesn't allow it.
Thanks, Just.
When I read "Wardens, superintendents and keepers of prisons, penitentiaries, jails" etc., it looked to me like a "keeper" of the jail was the person in charge. Obviously, wardens and superintendents are bosses. If "keeper" is defined a top dog in the jail system, then the COs wouldn't be able to carry to/from.
There is probably a State-level "administrative interpretation" somewhere.
The following history was sent to me.
Crabtree was the Captain and Hendle was Sheriff. Lt Schulz ran for Sheriff against Hendle and when he lost he was made the head of the jail. They basically XXXXXXX him. They had FOP Lodge 119 and Schultz was afraid the jailers would have more votes than patrol, so Sgt Sanders ran for Sheriff and he started their own lodge. It is still called the Patrolman’s Lodge 118. They had lots of union problems because the Schulz did not like jailers. When Schulz left, Chief Harrison came from Crystal Lake to run the jail. He was not Crystal Lake Chief. After Harrison left, they had Chief Mare. Some jail law changed and the people that were still deputies working in the jail were told they would have to attend the police academy and go to the road if they wanted to remain deputies. A couple of people went to the police academy or maybe had already attended and stayed deputy’s. They transferred to patrol. Everyone else decided to stay in Corrections. Some sued the Sheriff and Merit Commission to remain deputies, but they lost the lawsuit. There was some Attorney General decision that was posted explaining they were not police. Nobody in the jail is a deputy now. Everyone is a correctional officer.
We were always allowed to carry weapons to and from work and for work assignments. That never changed, We could not have off duty guns.
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